When someone tells you you’re not good at something, you’re faced with 2 options. Accept it or do something about it. Kevin Mercurio did something about it. Join us as the podcaster, and former chair of Pint of Science chats about how a change of scenery can help improve communication, balancing acts and why a scorpion was in an Irish pub.

The Comms Takeaways

Kevin:They brought a scorpion into the bar. A live scorpion into the bar. This is the first time this has happened don’t think I told the CEO of Pint of science global about this yet, but maybe she’ll hear this

Maaria: Welcome to Pros and Cons. In this podcast, I talk to people about their professional and personal stories, uncovering the different ways and common themes of resonating with an audience. After all, communication is essentially storytelling. I’m Maria Ginai and today I’ll be talking to Kevin Mercurio, a science communicator and fellow podcaster who’s currently undertaking a PhD in microbiology.

We’ll be discussing his path to science, what makes a good science communicator, and how a scorpion ended up in a pub.

Maaria: All right. So, Kevin, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It’s been a bit eventful, and we’ve got a lot of jeopardy going on with low batteries on headphones and stuff.

But thank you for joining me anyway. I would describe you, just from what I know about you, as being curious about the nature of life and passionate about communicating science in whatever way you can. That’s what I would say about you. But why don’t you tell me a bit about yourself

Kevin: a Yeah, thank you. That’s pretty good description of me, to be honest. Probably better than I could describe myself, but first of all, thank you, Maria, for having me on the podcast. you know, your passion about communication and discussion with the amazing guest lineup that, you have.

 Truly humbled to be a part of that list of guests I’ll try to also refrain from asking you questions as, you know, I’m a podcaster myself.

Maaria: Please do, please do.

Kevin: That’ll be hard

for me to do. but

I will try.

Yeah.

Quick intro myself. So, I grew up in the Canadian capital of Ottawa and throughout my early life, I really loved math and science courses, sciences were really the only courses that kind of challenged me in a, in a way that pressured me to study and learn more. So that’s, I think where my curiosity started to grow.

And throughout my science courses, chemistry was probably my, my favourite course because of the fun assignments that my chemistry teacher in high school would have us do. He would make us do like rap songs and stuff about chemistry, topics. So that really grew my interest, how do you How do you teach science how do you talk about science in these sort of unique ways?

So, I from there, I did my undergraduate studies in biochemistry at the University of Ottawa. I thought it was, just a combination of biology and chemistry, but it’s actually a really complex field of cellular metabolism and cell biology, and then after my undergraduate degree, I actually took a year off, worked in the Canadian government in global affairs for a bit, which is an interesting story in itself, and then from there I was like desk job wasn’t for me. I was more into dynamic work environments. So I went back into sciences, did my master’s in biochemistry in the same university that was in 2017 past my viva in 2020. And that was during the pandemic. And., I had a lot of free time afterwards to think about what I wanted to do, and that’s when I started, my own podcast called Metaphorigins, about language and how signs get communicated in various forms. In 2021, so mid pandemic, I started my PhD in Microbiology at Trinity college Dublin, here in Ireland, where I currently reside. My PhD is on RNA molecules, so something people, nowadays have come across with the recent pandemic, through vaccines, but what I study is really small RNAs called microRNAs, and a specific class of diseases called inflammatory bowel diseases, so Crohn’s disease or ulcerative colitis. And how these molecules modify inflammation and the consequences of those actions within patients, but animal models and in some cell lines that we use. outside of the lab, I love volunteering in the university and general science community. So, I teach high school students microbiology as part of the Scholars Ireland program, and I participate in different science communication initiatives both in Canada and Ireland. science Slam Canada was one of the first ones I joined which kind of fuelled my interest again in how science can be communicated in these really weird and engaging ways. Maybe not weird, just engaging. And I was a co-director for Pint of Science could that’s,

that’s

Yeah, weird be

engaged

like a way

to be engaging. Yeah, science land Canada does that sort of stuff. Yeah. And also, as a, I was co-director for Pint of science Ireland, over the last two years. That is a great organization, which again, I assume we’ll talk about, later in the discussion. Yeah. That’s a quick intro on me.

Maaria: Yeah,

and you’ve done so much, you’ve experienced like so many different like industry sectors, like experiences. Yeah. You mentioned that the government was interesting, so let’s circle back to there. Tell me what you did there and how you saw that communication in that sort of way in a very public policy setting.

Kevin: Yeah, it was a sort of weird story in that, it was in the global affairs Canada, which is, scientists don’t normally join, international affairs politics. So, I first joined them as a co-op position in my. undergraduates. So, it was a, sort of internship. And it was in their trade commissioner service. So basically, it’s mainly focused on business, and establishing relationships between businesses in Canada small businesses in Canada and international partners, usually larger companies in the same sector or field. And I joined the life sciences division in the trade commissioner service and their team. Was headed by an engineer, so he, established a team where he ensured that the person he put in charge of, let’s say, let’s say biopharmaceuticals, which is what I was in charge of, knew the science behind the companies that they would talk to, which is different to the other teams that were there. So that intrigued me. So I, I Joined their team and, what I would do, I would sort of be a middleman in a way, linking these small Canadian biopharmaceutical companies or biotech companies, and try to get them to meet with, large pharmaceutical companies in Europe, in Asia, get them to talk, collaborate in a way, and try to boost the Canadian economy. So, I would meet with different CEOs of, these science companies. We talk about the science, they do how their drugs work, and how to best, invest in their company so that they can actually use it in patients so that they can benefit, those people with certain diseases. So, there was a lot of meetings there, a lot of emails I had to do. A lot of report writing I had to do. And it, it was honestly quite an experience. I got to travel to different places in Canada to talk to these CEOs visit some of their. manufacturing facilities as well, so you get to see how drugs get developed and you sort of get a nuanced perspective about, you know, these drugs are portrayed in the media as very expensive and you sort of get to understand why it has to be that expensive at least at first and it also has to be expensive depending on how many people have Certain diseases that these drugs are trying to cure so it’s, it makes me think that the world is not as, as simple as it, as it may seem from the surface.

Maaria: and

did you, because I also have that background of working with pharmaceutical companies. And so, it is a fact that, you know, people don’t understand that process and, and why things are so expensive. And, it’s because of all the tight regulations and things that that industry has. And I think that for quite a while. And it is getting better now with science communicators like yourself and, and other people out there. But it was that, that lack of transparency was just so big that people didn’t understand the connections that’s getting better now, and do you think that that is a good thing and that the life science industry should be more open and transparent about what happens?

Kevin: Yes, I, I think that is a good thing and I actually see pharmaceutical companies hire science communicators to talk about the science that they do and how their drugs get developed. There is one, science communicator who got popular on Instagram and Twitter, who a big pharmaceutical company hired him, to discuss, in these sort of reels or, fun posts about how drugs get developed and the science behind them. So, he gets that engagement, and people can ask him questions and he get to answer them in real time. Overall, that is good. because it’s so accessible you get people who maybe don’t fully understand how the science works and make certain assumptions and it’s good for. Scientists, science communicators to engage with the people who have questions So you can answer them in all the nuances that could occur.

Maaria: Yeah,

definitely, that’s what’s so complicated about science communication is you’re taking lots of very complex processes and concepts trying to, to simplify them down and that’s what you and other amazing science communicators are doing and that’s why it’s so valuable coming back to your role when you were working, for the government and working, with, smaller companies, smaller biotech’s. That must have been exciting, seeing these new technological advancements and, people trying to commercialise things which could, revolutionise what we do, the way we live. So, what were some of the, the most memorable and exciting technologies you remember seeing you glad

you asked

working in that role?

Kevin: Oh, I’m so glad you asked me that me that. There was one I particularly remember, it was sort of like a dream, project, because I really love space, space travel, and how, organizations like NASA and, know, even SpaceX and Blue Origin, like how they’re revolutionizing space travel. There’s this one project where this medical device company was trying to, design these robots, or just, just, surgical tools to perform surgery in zero gravity.

Maaria: Wow.

Kevin: So, we would, talk with those, that company. And there was a, the Japanese government was interested in the technology that they were, developing. So, linking them with a, a, country’s space travel department, too. talk about the, the great innovations that they’re doing, how their robot works, what sort of materials they use. So just sitting in those discussions and learning about how surgery can be performed in zero gravity was, was like mind blowing. It was probably one of the memorable projects, most memorable projects I worked on in the government, yeah.

Maaria: That’s amazing.

I mean,

I’ve just got images of the astronaut doctors with like scalpels like flying around gravity and that. But that’s thing.

Sounds like a, it’s

stuff like

you I could make a good story out of that, I think.

Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. And that’s, yeah, that’s definitely something I would remember. I love space as well. And, I think like people coming back to science communicators, like some way. Favourite science is like Professor Brian Cox and like even like Dara O’Brien who’s like a physicist and, a comedian but he’s also like incredibly clever and he does science communication as well. So, who are some of your favourite science communicators, either more mainstream and well known or maybe some who aren’t as well known?

Kevin: Just thinking about it, before the interview, I was, the first one that came to mind and just because of childhood influence was Bill Nye his kids, kids TV when was growing up when I was, I was something that was shown in science classes throughout my early education. But just the way he, performed experiments, he was sort of the weird engaging type, I would say. The way he performed experiments with, kids on his show, really dived into slowly progressing the complexity of what he’s, the idea or concept he’s, talking about, I thought Bill Nye was a fantastic spokesperson for science.

He still is, actually. More so nowadays, a lot of the stuff that I want to learn is through YouTube. A lot of YouTubers I follow like Derek Muller He has a great channel, Veritasium. he started his PhD, in physics, but then it became more about how to communicate physics, to the public, so I thought that was a cool background as well. Another channel I follow is Vsauce, and his way of talking about science in those 20 30 minute clips, are how I structure my podcast. So, he was a great influence for me. Physics Girl, who Diana Cowern, she has a great channel about different aspects of physics, and, she’s currently going through a long COVID bout, so hopefully she recovers, in the near future. But, yeah, her channel was amazing. In terms of animation, there’s another channel called kurzgesagt, which I think started in Germany.

Maaria: Oh

yeah.

Oh

I love them. Where they do the little like animations and stuff. They’re cool.

Kevin: of their videos I actually use in my high school teaching because it’s just such a, the way they animate, the colours they use, how, again, slowly progressing the complexity of their concept, fantastic animation. Every video they make is amazing and, I watched. Their immunology video, and it’s the best immunology video, I have ever wat I’ve ever seen. It’s such a great way to explain it, Kurzgesagt is great. Um Uh, Chris Hadfield, is a Canadian astronaut. He, was, the commander of the iSS, think back in the early 2000 and tens. But he really used, video. And connectivity, to teach people about life in space in the ISS. not just the scientific experiments he was involved with, but how he communicated those to the public was amazing. In terms of podcasting, someone that came to mind was Allie Ward who does ologies. she brings an expert on, she talks about their field, and

 she does, again, progressively gets, more complex as the episode goes on. And maybe just professor I came across here in Ireland is someone named Luke O’Neill, who’s probably the most famous Irish scientist at the moment. He’s an immunologist here in Trinity and I attended one of his talks. Yeah, just a brilliant speaker. Seems casual, seems calm. It’s, it’s fun to hear him speak about potentially boring immunology. But just the way he, he describes concepts, it’s very easy to understand. And, he’s a, a bestselling author as well, and he has an even has a band called Metabolomix, I think.

Where he performs in Trinity concerts, so that’s kind of amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. check him out, both him and the band. That’s awesome.

Yeah. So

Maaria: looking at that amazing list of science communicators, and obviously we’ve got to add you to the list as well with all the stuff you’re doing, both, you know,

your research, but also, as you mentioned, your podcast. So, tell me a bit about your podcast and how that started and how you explore the use of metaphors and storytelling to delve into scientific concepts.

Kevin: Yeah, definitely. the podcast itself, started off on just metaphors. Would often think about Figurative language and I would use figurative language throughout just general conversation, but I never knew where they came from. So, I started to be interested in the origins of that. the podcast initially started as the origins of metaphors. And how metaphors don’t just make general conversation easier for people to relate to and understand, but it’s just also genuine and clever. It just makes you more engaged with what people are talking about. I started to add on to it by adding science communication to it after the first season. to incorporate what I do in my scientific career. As your listeners may agree with me, or not agree with me, but science in its raw fundamental form, at least for me, is not easy to understand. A fact about nature or the universe is not interesting, to me unless two things can happen. One, you connect to something about that fact, or two, you or two, I tell you why it should be interesting to you. And hopefully you relate to something I say there. in my podcast, I, talk about, the origins of metaphors. That’s the first, maybe half of my podcast. I then bring that metaphor into the science domain. How you can use that metaphor to talk about certain scientific concepts. And then I bring on a guest, usually an early career researcher who engages with that topic and how they use figurative language in the field that they do studies on, or even just do as a hobby, for example. Yeah, and it’s been an hour and five seasons and now. It’s really fun. It has been taking a break because of the PhD, but I do hope to get back to it soon.

Maaria: Amazing.

Well, I mean, if there was any reason to take a break. Doing a PhD is one, uh, probably for anyone who hasn’t checked it out there’s a lot of, episodes to, to catch up on, before you come back, you said you have guests who come on and tell you about how they use figurative language and how you explore metaphors, are there Any, metaphors which you particularly like or you particularly think do really well at communicating something figuratively.

 What’s your favourite one?

Kevin: Non science or science

metaphors?

Just,

Maaria: Just,

any. just any. anything which has

sort of,

Yeah,

you and, and why.

impacted

Kevin: have one that’s a non-science one, and it’s to me, it’s a bit crude, but Netflix and chill is one of my favourite metaphors. One of my favourite metaphors of modern day. I actually do talk about it in, an episode of my podcast in season three, episode three,

It’s, it’s, it’s such an innocuous activity, which means something completely different due to the internet. So, I dive into the origins of that. It’s, it’s quite a fun episode. I bring a guest on and we, we talked about online dating. So it was like a, a fun sort of, way of, how, you know, even in modern day, we are creating more and more figurative language, which is cool. But, going back to the science, in terms of a science metaphor, I think physics has the best metaphors within science.

One I particularly like is spaghettification. I don’t know, do you know, Maria, what

spaghettification is

Maaria: Okay,

let’s, let’s say,

say I’m not

let’s

familiar with it too

Kevin: It’s a concept It describes what happens to a person if they fall into a black hole. So, I think I heard Neil deGrasse Tyson talk about spaghettification first, on some talk show, but like essentially because of how different the gravity is, the closer you are to the black hole, you can feel that difference. Let’s say you go feet first into a black hole.

You can feel that difference of gravity. Already from your feet versus your head. So what happens there is that you start to stretch like spaghetti The closer and closer you get until the point where you just become a line of atoms that represent What you currently were or what you were So it’s a great to me it’s a great example of a concept linguists called de-nominalisation so like when a noun becomes a verb. So, spaghetti became spaghettification or to spaghetti fi and then spaghettification is that state of being a spaghetti, which is hilarious. And then one last one I would say just related to my own field is the tree of life. This is a great metaphor because it’s such a used. It’s such a used description to illustrate the concept of ancestry that we kind of forget it’s a metaphor still. And a tree is like a perfect way to showcase, you know, how life evolved. And then if you Google tree of life, this spawns like beautiful images, illustrations from artists, all across the world, who depict what the tree of life is, and I show these images actually in some of my high school lectures and the kids love it.

Yeah, tree of life, I would say for biological sciences is one of my favourite metaphors.

Maaria: there’s also that really interesting link of, Between science and art and how language can, facilitate that, As you said, the Tree of Life, spawning all this amazing, artwork which visualizes concepts that, know, are written down and then become amazing, amazing visuals and amazing art. I think there’s a lot of discussion in this. I science community about that or there are like crossovers were,

Some institutions are trying to bridge that gap between science and art and yeah, it’s an incredible field. Yeah, the use of language is another tool to be able to,

you know, have that bridge and connect that is, is, amazing.

And that’s just another demonstration of how amazing communication is and what forms it can take, I guess.

And

it’s,

It’s

wanted to add, it’s sort of like things that and you talked about how science and art sort of get bridged by good communication or metaphors, figurative language, with the tree of life, you sort of get grounded because, when you visualize what the tree of life is, you realize that you’re just like a small part of what life what, what describes life? Y you see where you are in the Tree of Life, and where things that you see are in the Tree of Life, and it’s just such a small proportion of what came before you, so it sort of grounds you in a way. it brings you back down to Earth, oh, you should appreciate, or at least, this is what happens when I think of it. I start to, I start to appreciate, that I am, I am alive today. And all that’s, all those steps that got me to this point are, like, mind blowingly great

It really gives your perspective, doesn’t it yeah

 So, on the topic of communication and your interest in communication and your involvement in, you know, your podcast and, and teaching kids about science so what sparked this communication then in, science communication in, particular?

Kevin: Yeah, I guess the origin story to that, I believe it came from, a negative experience I had. I remember a mentor of mine, this was during a group meeting we had where I guess all of us were trying to present what, the work we were doing over the last few weeks, let’s say. And this happens a lot in science. You’re a part of this research team. And then you get together, let’s say once a week, once a month. And talk to your team about the work that you’re doing. You know, problems you’re having, and then you all kind of discuss it. So, there was one particular meeting where a mentor of mine implied that I was terrible at communicating the work I was doing to the, to the team members. And I, I remember after that meeting, I had two options. One, I could quit. I could quit the project. Or two, I could just really work on how I speak. Or just how I describe science in general. I wasn’t always a good speaker. I was very not confident in stuff that I would say, from that meeting, I would sort of engage and. I would try to attend talks that, people in my community would be giving, talks about their research. I would, watch a lot of YouTube videos. I would read a lot of books about science and how they would write about science, like communicating the science how they would write that. Because mainly in science, for people that may not know, you’re, you’re sort of just, enthralled with scientific research papers. And that, in itself, it’s very, sometimes good writing, it’s very, specific, but it doesn’t really translate to speaking in front of an audience, for example. Or getting your message across to different audiences. From then I would just engage with anything that would help me in communicating science and that would involve, you know, joining volunteer groups as well, doing different initiatives in my university community. And that sort of grew my interest in Oh, okay. This is actually fun. I like, developing communication skills in science. And then I would just try to do as many

projects as I could.

Maaria: So, it’s interesting that you said you weren’t really into communication, you didn’t think you were a good communicator, and you’ve worked at that. For any people in let’s say academia who want to communicate their science but feel like they’re not great communicators or don’t know how, have you got maybe like a few top tips that can help them become better Yeah, communicators

Kevin: Honestly, how I did it was just to accept failure, and try to get yourself the experience of communicating, whether that be in front of a lab research group, you can do for specifically people in academia, you could do journal clubs where you read papers in a group or yeah, you

You talk about a paper within a group maybe one person is in charge of that paper and you kind of discuss the science behind that paper and have a discussion through that So that’s something maybe just in terms of general things something you could do is to, do, improve. Most of the time, I think that when you talk about science, your kind of trying to remember really complex things in your head, so you’re, you’re not really, in the moment, per se. A way to practice that is to do improv and every science communication workshop that I’ve attended, attended, I’ve attended many these because I thought I was a really bad communicator. And I’m still developing those skills. Anyway, any, any of these workshops that I attended would always have some sort of improv aspect to it. You know, most people there are PhD students. So, the instructor would say, okay, pick an object in your room, grab that object, and pretend you need this object for your research. Talk about it. do a one minute presentation on for example. So just thinking on your feet allows you to not, not be solely focused on memorizing, you know, these really complex scientific things that you want to talk about in your talk, which is important to do. But getting out of your head, just being more engaging, with the audience, with The slides that you have, and not just reading off the slides, or just memorizing something is, is really important to do, yeah, in terms of a technique that can maybe help you in communicating science well, doing some sort of improv exercises really helped me.

 So, you said getting in a room, doing improv, thinking on your feet. But how much do you think the environment that you’re in affects the way you communicate? Do you think that’s something as well?

Maaria: I mean, I guess I’ll answer my own question a little bit, but obviously, if you’re in front of a room full of people, it can be less or more intimidating than if you’re just, having a conversation. But how, how much do you think the environment can affect you and what steps can you take to maybe mitigate the uncomfortable? Environments that you might find

Kevin: that’s a good question, yeah. I think the environment definitely impacts the way you communicate your work. Obviously, your audience as well, but perhaps the venue that you’re in. Will, to a certain extent, dictate how you, how you speak, maybe your movements on the stage or in front of everyone. Mitigating those things, again, the only thing I can think of is to have experience with that. So, a lot of people in academia have experience talking to scientists, other scientists, specifically those in their field about their research. But getting experience talking to maybe scientists who aren’t experts in your field, maybe academics who aren’t into science, but are studying other things. And then obviously those who are non-scientists who, just want to know what work you do. That’s another, group of people that I would say a lot of people don’t have experience with and. That’s something to try to, to get experience, and, and you, you normally don’t get that specific group in conference venues or, in like these, these big stages. Like for example, pint of science, the organization I’m involved with. we talk about science, and we have, scientists do presentations in pubs, cafes, restaurants, across Ireland. And, that venue is, is very unique.

It’s, it’s, it’s nothing that I’ve seen before. And there is, there’s good things, there’s bad things to it. But it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s an experience that I think everyone, everybody who does science should, should do. Well,

Thanks for bringing Pint of Science up, because I was just to that. I have done various Pint of Science, things when I was, an academic in Edinburgh. So, they were really cool, I really enjoyed them. Obviously, you’re involved with Pint of Science Ireland. Tell me a bit more about the initiative and maybe some of the stuff that Pint of Science do. Yeah, definitely. So maybe full disclosure. And since it was recently announced, I have stepped down as my role of co-director upon a science Ireland, which I’ve held for the last two years. yeah, I believe that the team that we had over these last two years, and I was part of Pint of science back in 2021 as well, these, these three iterations of teams coming out of the pandemic were. Amazing at spurring growth again in science communication in Ireland. pint of science, despite Me stepping down as an organization, I will happily promote, it’s something I’m truly proud of. It’s, the pint of science itself is a global organization that started back in. 2011, I believe, it started in the UK, and it grew to 25 other countries or over 25 other countries. And this included Ireland, which started back in 2013 The whole point of pint of science is bringing scientists into these informal settings, which we talked about, like a pub, like a cafe. And talk to, talk about science to the public in these sort of fun, engaging ways, whether it’s, through the use of props, I don’t know, and in any other weird ways that you can think of just to talk about science in the non-lecture style, all for zero cost to attendees and participants in the, in the, in the events that we do. the main event that we do, it’s a festival that happens over three days in May, and something that maybe people are surprised about when I mention it is that our organization is completely volunteer run. So, from co directors down to, people that run the events, we have maybe a hundred volunteers in total. Everybody does this for free Because they, they, they like engaging with science and trying to spread, scientific research or the scientific research in Ireland to different groups of people across the country. And as we said, the pub is not, it’s not your normal, classroom style for science, so you have, you know, it’s very loud, it’s messy, people dropping drinks, even falling down, it, it’s sort of something you need exactly You to right? So, scientists do their presentations. Yeah, yeah, have something happens, You to, you know, you have to know what to do with it, you know, you have to say something or you know, move on or use that as a segue into a topic something like that Which is fun

So you have those presentations and kind of to engage the audience more we design games throughout the night So people can win prizes as well yeah, of course, you Pint of science is just half the name There are plenty of pints that are had and anything that brings

people what’s, what’s one of the most memorable, I won’t say favourite, but one of the most memorable events that you’ve been involved in, in

good one Oh, very question. Actually, this one this past festival back earlier this year in May, I wasn’t involved with it, but I, I heard, I heard the news afterwards and, and pictures of it, but somebody who works in toxicology, Toxicology? Our biologists, let’s say, they work with scorpions and tarantulas and basically anything with toxins, as defence mechanisms. They brought a scorpion into the bar. A live scorpion into the bar. This is the first time this has happened don’t think I told the CEO of

Pint of science global about this yet, but maybe she’ll hear this

Maaria: exclusive We got an exclusive.

Kevin: But yeah, one of the science has brought a live scorpion to the to the bar and it’s a they were they told us afterwards. It’s an it’s used for teaching. So To me that means that there’s no way for the scorpion to cause any harm they didn’t specify that but Yeah, so it’s used for teaching, they allowed attendees to hold the scorpion, and one of the volunteers, how we found out is one of the volunteers showed us this image of her holding the scorpion, and was like, oh, isn’t this cool, and me and the other co-director were like, what? There’s a scorpion, there? What? What’s happening? Pandemonium. At its tell me

robotically moving right now. It’s just remote controlled, right yeah, so that happened. I think, I think it was probably the most, exciting, talked about events that we had at the festival. So, like overall it worked out fine, but it gave us a scare. That’s for sure. Us on the national team.

Maaria: Well,

If that isn’t a glowing endorsement why you should get with pint of science activities, then I on sell it to you. Oh man, that’s amazing. I mean, I wish that had happened in the and events that I’d gone to, but I’m, hoping that’ll be a big draw for any future Planet of

Kevin: Hopefully.

I’m sorry Praveena, if this is a bad thing.

nothing bad happened

Maaria: was fine, it in the end.

So, you said you’ve stepped down as co-director of pint of science, and I’m assuming, but do correct me, because this is because you’re ramping up to the end of your PhD?

Kevin: Yeah, that’s correct. So, I have about, I technically have less than a year but because of COVID, I will probably do an extension, just to finish off, some of the experiments I need to do. Yeah, it’s just to focus on the PhD, fully, fully focused on the PhD,

Maaria: doing Pint of Science, doing the podcast, doing a PhD, how have you managed, have you balanced all of this

and what? things would you say to people who have a lot of stuff Maybe not doing a PhD but have a lot of Stuff that they’re doing. How can you balance all of this stuff?

Kevin: yeah, invited, a colleague of mine who I find has perfect work life balance. So, we talked about, we talked about that, especially for early career researchers, academia, but anyone who does a lot of stuff, as you said, that episode ironically took a lot of my free time and energy. So that was, was, it was interesting to do a research on how people. Yeah. The, the, the tips and tricks of people that, not only preach about work life balance, but do a lot of stuff themselves and yeah, how they, how they. Accomplish that, some of the techniques that I do maybe are just suited for myself. But one that I thought was a good thing that everyone can attach to is just to be mindful, which is incredibly hard to do. So last year, I took up meditation, as a, just a daily practice, and how difficult it is to Focus on nothing, or let alone one thing, is extremely challenging. And I think, I think that way of life, or being mindful is, is becoming more important in our busy lives now. So being mindful of your limitations, if you work in a team, your team’s strengths and weaknesses, and being mindful that you should take time for yourself. So

At least when I Started my early career. I am in my early career, but When I first Started I would just do as many things as possible But I would not have time for myself to just wind down and chill relax so figure out how you Do that to you To your benefit. Do you like watching movies? Do you like reading a book? Do you like going for a walk? And if you could Do that yourself, just to bring you back down to non-stressful levels, that’s something that I think is extremely important. Another thing, perhaps, is don’t be afraid to ask for help. Again, that’s something that I would say I was very, very bad at.

I still am bad at that anyone that I work with can a test that I do not ask for help, and, try to be a perfectionist and do things myself, but don’t be afraid to ask for help. And lastly, this last thing, ultimately, something that I found useful was just to be okay with things not working out as you had planned. And this is just for the perfectionists out there, but if you could be okay with that and just adapt to what’s happening, it might not have worked out as you planned, but like the scorpion thing It could just up fine. yeah

Maaria: yeah,

mean, that’s a,

That’s brilliant note to end the podcast on. But I Will a few more questions. And we’ve talked about sort of your communication tips previously, but, in your experience, what are the most important things for effective communication? Yeah, definitely.

Kevin: I do try to get as much experience in this as possible, I boiled it down to three things, and we probably touched on this in the episode so far, but the first thing is to be relevant by knowing your audience.

So I tend to I attend many talks where they just go into the meat of their concept or the ideas they want to talk about without kind of telling the audience something that they can connect with so if you let’s say you talk about a disease like I do my PhD on inflammatory bowel diseases Which affect the digestive tract, you know, you could talk about This disease how it impacts people in Ireland You can even just talk about diet and how that relates to inflammatory bowel disease. Everyone relates to food so Starting with something relevant and knowing the audience that you’re talking about so that you can bring up something that is relevant to them that would be the first thing. The second thing is to be emotionally aware by observing your audience, so comedians do this Extremely well, they are the masters at this. So that brings about adaptability. So, let’s say you see your audience, you know, their body language is very closed. They have their arms folded. Maybe they disagree with what you’re saying So stay with that message and kind of talk about the nuances behind it. That’s something that I would do when I do a talk or if you, you see people on their phone not paying attention to you, I, this happens a lot in my high school lectures. I can imagine. Try to try to get them. Yeah. Yeah, try to get them to do something like do an activity with Ask them a question like a simple question. How many of you? You Do something related to whatever you’re talking about. Raise your hand just to get them up and moving. So being emotionally aware by observing your audiences second and lastly, and most importantly, which is something I noticed in pints of science is the best speakers, the most engaging speakers are the ones that are having fun. So be engaging by having fun. Nobody wants to look, nobody wants to sit down and,

listen to somebody who thinks speaking in front of them is a painful experience. So, get experience of course, to communicate to audiences. And try to find the fun in it whether it’s in the topic that you do whether it’s in the one the kind of discussions that you have with audience members This makes you more engaging and overall you’ll just enjoy it more to be honest just have just have fun find the fun in talking, to people

Maaria: yep, and bring, bring scorpion in, that’ll help. Talk

Oh, brilliant. It’s

been so lovely talking to you, Kevin. could talk to you all day, But

I been brilliant, and I’m definitely Yeah, I definitely I’m interested in hearing more point of those shenanigans. Maybe we’ll get you back on podcast and yeah, you can just a little rundown of those. But yeah, once again, thank you so much for, for joining me and

I want to give you the last word and give me the one that you’d like to leave listeners with.

thing

Kevin: yeah. so, thank you, Maria, for having me on the podcast. Again, your, your list of guests is phenomenal. So just being a part of that list is very grateful for that.

One thing I’d like to leave listeners with. I thought long and hard about this, but Maybe the one thing I can think of is to talk to as many people as you can so I accept this interview and I would do interviews with people Because I love talking to people and learning about their backgrounds and what they do this literally saved my life. So that’s another story in itself. But uh this this practice of talking to as many people as you can just guides me through life, through good and bad experiences, but it shapes the person who I am today. There’s one thing I could leave you, leave your listeners with, it’s to talk to as many people as you can.

Maaria: Kevin had some fantastic insights as to what makes a great science communicator, and it’s been so interesting to hear how his lived experiences have helped him shape those ideas. One tip that really resonated was communication being a skill. If we want to get better at it, then we need to practice. Get out there and have conversations with people from all areas.

I was intrigued to hear Kevin’s thoughts on how a change of environment can impact how we communicate. A change of venue gives us an opportunity to meet new audiences and learn to adapt our communication styles to better connect with them. In life science, we might need to communicate our ideas to various stakeholders.

From researchers, to investors, to patients. By practicing how we deliver our message, both with a wide range of people and in a mix of venues, we can feel confident in what we’re saying, even if we need to change our delivery methods. You can find more information about this episode on the Mowbi website.

Find the link in the show notes. If you want more pros and cons, why not subscribe on your favourite podcasting platform? You can follow us on Instagram at prosandcomspodcast, join in the conversation on YouTube, and let us know what you think of pros and coms by rating us on Spotify and Apple podcasts.